Author Topic: Spontaneous Shutdowns  (Read 16961 times)

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Offline rgm

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Spontaneous Shutdowns
« on: June 12, 2016, 12:23:28 pm »
(SOLVED) Last September we had a long session with my Windows 7 problems, including Windows Update not updating and no Restore Points.  I got busy and didn't have a chance to respond to your last message (I think); sorry.  Anyhow, over the next two or three months, Windows started seemingly repairing itself, until it finally was working "normally" again.

More recently, my computer has been spontaneously shutting down — suddenly turning off the power completely, not the typical Windows crash or restart.  It did it in the middle of my long message here earlier, so I am now writing from Safe Mode, which seems to be working a lot better, which is a hint, I think, as to the problem.  I thought before maybe it was a PC issue, as my fan (I think) has been running loud (It doesn't seem to be on at all in Safe mode!  ??).

Anyhow, I've run tweaking.com's Windows Repair from Safe Mode, done a few chkdsk's (which run overnight and longer), scanned with Norton, Malwarebytes, SUPERAntiSpyware, a Registry repair, etc., but the spontaneous shutdowns seem to be getting more frequent.  Sometimes Windows seems to get slower and slower and then PC Off!!  Sometimes Windows stops altogether and then PC Off!!  Sometimes I go away for an hour or so and come back to the PC off!  Sometimes it seems to happen when I have several windows and/or programs open at once, but I don't think that's always the case.

When I was typing this before Safe Mode, the typing wouldn't keep up with me, and then PC Off!  It's typing as fast as I can type now, so I'm guessing you're going to tell me to try shutting down all programs that start automatically and then, if the PC doesn't shut off, start adding them back until it happens again.  However, I'm still going to ask, can Windows power off the PC like that?  Are there any other issues that could be doing it?
Thanks,

Richard

P.s. I put together an image of the items in the msconfig Start Up list and came back to attach it.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 06:01:05 pm by rgm, Reason: Added another attachment »

Offline Boggin

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2016, 04:35:34 pm »
It sounds like an overheating problem.

If you are using a desktop pc then you should be able to see the temps in the BIOS but while in Safe Mode with Networking, download the free version of HWMonitor and that will show your temps as well as voltages.

http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/hwmonitor.html

With a desktop pc, it can also be caused by a faulty Power Supply Unit (PSU).

Their output can be measured with a multimeter, but not having a desktop pc or ever having done that - not sure of the procedure.

In HWMonitor check that the 12, 5 and/or 3 volt rails are about those values.

You can run the program in Safe Mode to see what they are and compare in normal mode if you can stay on that long to start the program.

BTW - You don't need any programs under the Startup tab unless they are security monitoring programs - they'll work fine when you boot them up as required and then you won't be unnecessarily using up memory and power.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2016, 04:40:54 pm by Boggin »

Offline rgm

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2016, 02:50:07 pm »
Thanks.  I thought I had resolved the issue by disabling everything in msconfig's startup section and then just adding the basic things I wanted to the Startup folder.  This worked fine until today, when I had several IE windows open, Dreamweaver open with two files, FileZilla open with two tabs, and a couple of Notepad files open, and maybe Windows Mail.  Everything was going fine; I'd accomplished all my work and was writing an e-mail to a client about it, and the computer turned off.  (I am installing the monitor program now to check temps; I'm not sure how to find BIOS for temps.  ??)

Anyhow, my question becomes, does running a lot of programs at the same time increase the temperature of the computer????

Thanks again,

Richard

Offline Boggin

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2016, 05:11:30 pm »
Well you are increasing the load the more windows you have open, but right click on the task bar and open Task Manager/Performance to see what your CPU and Memory are using.

Offline rgm

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2016, 11:44:22 am »
I took the side off my PC to see whether that would help cool it off before I downloaded and ran the monitor, so my temps may not be the same as they were with the side off; however, the last time it turned itself off, the side was off.  I did two monitor screenshots yesterday, one in Safe Mode and one in regular mode; then this morning, before turning on the computer, I dusted and vacuumed the insides and fans as much as I could, sprayed WD-40 into the fans (some dust puffed out!), and then ran the monitor after turning on the computer.  But I can't really get much out of the results (see attached comparison of all three test results side by side).

I usually have Task Manager running all the time, as it seems to help keep programs from freezing (my imagination?) and especially because I often need to End Task or End Process, really, Internet Explorer's extra iexplore.exe *32's to get the only page really there to work and sometimes end other frozen programs.  I know the memory and CPU is high when I have a lot of programs running.  However, I'm still unclear as to why the computer turns itself off.  In the past, having too many windows and programs open at the same time just froze the computer or occasionally crashed it with a memory dump, but it never used to turn off the power.  Can the CPU/memory overload actually shut off the PC?  Could it be there is a spot on the disk that somehow triggers shutoff? — Once or twice, Malwarebytes has gotten almost to the end of a long scan and then OFF!  And I think a Windows Essentials repair may have done that yesterday.  And it seems to me I have had that happen with another scanning program.  (I've done the chkdsk with the option to remove files from bad sectors, and it claims to fix errors it finds or that it hasn't found errors, so it would seem unlikely that there's a glitch on the drive.  On the other hand, sometimes it takes *forever* for Windows to get to the sign-in screen; sometimes it just freezes and I have to restart it.  Then other times it's just zip-zip sign-in/load.)

So in summary, three questions:
1. Can the CPU/memory overload actually shut off the PC power?
2. Could it be there is a spot on the disk that somehow triggers shutoff?
3. Does increased CPU/memory use increase heat?

Thanks, again.

Richard

Offline Boggin

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2016, 04:50:30 pm »
You have some extremely high temps there and are the likely cause of the shutdowns when they go higher.

Generally your fans should be able to hold the temps under 70ºC.

One sign of overheating is when the fans seem to be going full speed all of the time.

Overheating because the thermal paste needs changing or because the overheating is caused by a service(s) maxing out the CPU and causing a memory leak and freezing, will shut down the machine.

If you have been continuing to use the machine over long periods in this state, then you may well have renew the thermal paste anyway.

I've got an on going problem with one of my laptops where it was freezing and it was uncomfortable to keep my fingers on the touchpad, although it didn't get to the stage of shutting down.

For me, it was the Windows Update service maxing out the single core that laptop just has, although it never used to do that.

It's only since April that I've had problems getting updates on that machine where they are no longer presented and I am only prompted to run a check for updates which has taken ages before  they finally came.

To use that laptop comfortably, I have to disable and stop that service

With Task Manager open, click on Processes/Show processes from all users then on the name Memory which will sort them with the highest user first.

Right click on the highest (which could be the Service Host) and select Go to services.

This should highlight the service which is maxing out or helping to max out the CPU.

The Windows Update service will be listed as wuauserv there.

Whichever service it highlights, go Start - type services.msc and press enter then scroll down to that service - right click on it and select Properties and use the dropdown to change its status to Disabled.

Click on Apply and then on Stop - OK.

Click on File/Exit to close services and check to see what the CPU and Memory usage is like then, but don't have any windows open which will eliminate iexplore.exe

Repeat the steps if the CPU and Memory usage are still high.

Microsoft has an update that can reduce the memory usage Windows Update uses but it has no effect on the CPU usage.

That update is KB3065987 if you need it - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=47737

Have you tried running MBAM in Safe Mode to see if it will complete ?

I'm not clear whether a chkdsk has found any bad sectors or not but if the CPU is being maxed out, then that will have an effect on running any program.

Boot up into the advanced boot options and select Repair your Computer - change or confirm the language etc. - make a note of where it finds the OS to repair, as it may not always see it as C: then when in the Windows Recovery Environment (WRE), select Command Prompt and enter chkdsk x: /f where x is the partition letter.

As it is done outside of Windows, it won't require a reboot and should run much quicker.

While this won't do anything for any bad sectors, it will list any KBs it finds in bad sectors.

Enter exit to close the command window so that you can restart the machine.

« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 05:10:13 pm by Boggin »

Offline Willy2

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2016, 11:32:35 pm »
- To check the temperature of your CPU: Run SPECCY and open the "CPU" pane. It will show the temperature in real time (!!!). I regard any value over say 70 degrees C as "too high".
- Open Task Manager (processes tab). Are there any processes that use A LOT OF CPU (> 25 %) for a long time (e.g. "Svchost.exe") ?
- To check if Windows Update Service is the troublemaker: Open resource monitor (Processor tab). See under "Services" if the Service "Wuaserv" is using lots of CPU. You can stop that Service in that pane.

Some people have fiexd that high CPU usage by installing one or more Updates that fixed the Windows Update Agent.

Offline Boggin

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2016, 01:37:30 am »
HDMonitor also gives the temps in real time.

Offline rgm

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2016, 10:58:18 am »
Sorry for the long delay; I have been working on line and unable to stop to do other things.

I removed everything from my msconfig's Startup tab; it had a lot of Window processes runs or some such that I really couldn't tell what they were, and I had no idea where they and others had  come from.  Then I put in the Startup folder just the things I wanted to start when I booted up.  Since then, I haven't been having the spontaneous shutdown problem...at least if I don't have several programs and tabs open in various programs at the same time.  I have also left the side off the computer, which probably isn't a good idea for dust problems, and I sometimes turn a small fan toward the computer hoping it will direct some A/C in that direction (my office sometimes gets to 80°+ even when it's 76° in the living room).  When the main fan comes on full, it is rather loud, but it is quiet on low speed; so there might also be an issue with that fan.

Right now, System Idle Process is generally around 70, fluctuating to 43, 58, 66, etc., sometimes below 43 and sometimes 71 or 72.  The next highest one is svchost.exe at 25, sometimes 26, sometimes 23, 24.  But I don't have that much running at the moment.  When I check by name, I have 17 svchost.exe's listed; is that normal???

Ah, when I go to wauaserv under the Services tab, it doesn't say CPU; but, when I right-click it and choose Go to process, it takes me to that 25 svchost.exe one.

I would mark this as resolved, except I don't remember exactly how that is done.  ??

Thanks, again.

:Richard

Offline Willy2

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2016, 11:46:09 am »
- I assume degrees Fahrenheit ?
- What did SPECCY tell about the CPU temperature ?
- In Task Manager (TM) open the 4th tab from the left. Then click on the button near the bottom of the GUI in TM. That will open "Resource Monitor". Open the tab called "Processor" (second tab from the left). Look under the header called "Services". There you can see how much CPU each Service uses. Does a Service called "Wuauserv" use A LOT OF CPU, e.g. 25% (on the right hand side of the pane) ? Then it's clear you.ve got a "Windows Update" problem.

(A LOT OF people are experiencing this kind of problem).

Offline Boggin

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2016, 01:58:23 pm »
You can mark the thread Solved by going to your opening post, click on Modify and add (SOLVED) to the thread title, but have you gotten this month's Windows Updates yet ?

Offline rgm

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2016, 03:15:49 pm »
Willy: The second tab is CPU, but I eventually found wuauserv, and it is the one I mentioned as the svchost.exe at 25.
Boggin: Windows Update says it is up-to-date, although it says Definition Update for Windows Defender - KB915597 (Definition 1.225.1250.0) failed.

Either: "I have 17 svchost.exe's listed [in Windows Task Manager Processes]; is that normal?" 

Also, if I disable the Windows Update service, do I have to manually check for updates every Wednesday?

Thanks.

Offline Boggin

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2016, 03:49:27 pm »
I have 12 svchost.exe showing in mine, but you can right click on each and then Go to services but unless their memory usage is high as well as your CPU then you don't need to bother about them.

Windows Update service should be set to Started and Automatic (Delayed).

Setting it to disabled would probably just result in a never ending Check for updates when you did manually check.

Once you have gotten your monthly updates you could set it to disabled and then when the second Tuesday of each month comes around - reset it, but 25 is quite low so I doubt that will cause you any problems.

If the CPU is showing a very high usage then go to Processes, click on Show processes from all users then click on Memory and that will sort them to the highest user first.

If svchost.exe is the top user and the memory usage is high then right click on it and select Go to services to see which is the highest user of that group.

When you are in a hot climate then the external temps can have an affect and some have had to stick an electric fan next to their machines.

When you next switch it on from cold, run just HWMonitor and monitor the temps.

If they are high with just minimal load, then I think you should consider having the thermal paste renewed.

What was the error code for the Windows Defender update fail ?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 04:00:19 pm by Boggin »

Offline rgm

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2016, 04:44:00 pm »
Checked and either it didn't stop or it restarted, but I didn't disable, just stopped...I think.  Anyhow, checked, and it's set as you said.

Is replacing thermal paste something I can do, like get a tube of paste, unscrew some screws, remove, apply, replace?  Or does it require soldering or some other thing best left to an expert?  (It might be cheaper/safer to get a fan and some ice cubes! lol)  But right now, I haven't been having a problem, so it may be an "ain't broke don't fix" situation.

Windows update failure that doesn't seem to be available to try again [I was doing a check for updates, but it was taking forever; big storm started coming through; electricity went off, so I guess I'll just send this now while UPS has battery.]:

Definition Update for Windows Defender - KB915597 (Definition 1.225.1250.0)

Installation date: ‎7/‎12/‎2016 11:27 AM

Installation status: Failed

Error details: Code 800705B4

Update type: Important

Install this update to revise the definition files used to detect spyware and other potentially unwanted software. Once you have installed this item, it cannot be removed.





Offline Boggin

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2016, 05:14:47 pm »
If it's okay then I would leave it as you would know if you had an overheating problem due to the paste requiring changing.

This tutorial describes the best way to apply it, but I'd Google for how to do it on your make and model of computer if and when it would be required.

http://www.wikihow.com/Apply-Thermal-Paste

Are you using MSE as your antivirus program ?

The best way to stop Windows Defender update errors is to turn off Windows Defender if that is the only one that fails.

Offline rgm

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2016, 06:00:02 pm »
Thanks.

I use Norton Security Suite, as it comes free for my computer, laptop, tablets, and (I think) phone.  Actually, it probably even turns off Windows Defender.  I think I can only use Windows Defender as a secondary scan utility.  It doesn't always fail the updates, though.  There was one on the 8th that shows Successful; this failed one was yesterday.  I think it will probably update again sometime; I can't seem to get the checking for updates to complete, even after a reboot.  I know there's an optional Windows 7 update available.

I just checked (see attached, sorted by name, not date), and it seems to fail a lot and then have a successful one back and forth.  I don't know if the successful ones contain all the info from the failed ones or not, but it doesn't seem to retry all of the failed ones.  It's another one of those, I guess it doesn't really matter, anyhow, things.  :)

Thanks again.  I'm marking this (SOLVED).

Offline Boggin

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2016, 01:00:01 am »
I also use Norton Security but have never had any updates for WD - my WD is turned off.

If you are having problems with checking for updates, go into Installed Updates and enter into the top right search box to see if you have KB3161664 or KB3161608

The first one was a May update for the Windows Update Agent and the latter was a rollup for June's Windows Update Agent which has resolved update problems for quite a lot.

I tended to leave any Windows Update Agent updates alone because I didn't trust MS in their aggressive push to get Win 10 onto everyone's machines, whether they wanted it or not.

In June, Windows Update service was maxing out my CPU and the only way I could use the laptops was to set the WU service to disabled.

I was pointed to an article which gave the '664 update as a fix and later became aware of the '608 one.

It was the '608 one that fixed it for my newer Win 7 laptop whereas that wouldn't install on my older one, but '664 did.

However, to install either on each laptop I had to set the WU settings to Never and the WU service to Disabled and stopped.
.
Once they were installed, I set the WU service back to the way it was and when I changed the WU setting to auto install, that invoked the Check for updates and they came on each machine within a very short while.

You can mark your thread as Solved by going to your opening post, click on Modify and add (SOLVED) to the thread title.


Offline rgm

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2016, 11:04:02 am »
I didn't have the 608 one, so I went to Microsoft to do a manual install.  It started searching for installed updates and just kept doing that forever, so I went back to Windows Update to install the optional one I hadn't quite gotten around to and discovered it's the 608 one!  So it now claims it's downloading that one, although I'm not sure it will be able to do it without a reboot at this point.

Now maybe Memeo can figure out why Memeo Backup can't find the previous backup plan when it's right there in front of it!  (I have a remote session scheduled at 4 p.m.; I hate those!)

Thanks again,

Richard

Offline Boggin

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Re: Spontaneous Shutdowns
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2016, 11:38:02 am »
I can't remember if I had to reboot after that one, but I know it installed fine with WU service set to Disabled and WU settings set to Never.